Tuesday, January 6, 2015

Band Interview: SWIRL

Interview with Duane T. Jones and Shane Carlson of Swirl

Your live interview with New York, USA’s Obscure Chaos zine (on their official Facebook profile) was quite indepth and it provided a great deal of information about where Swirl is coming from and where they are going musically. Looking back, are you and the band satisfied with the amount of ground covered in said interview?
Duane T. Jones: I must say that was one of the most detailed and FUN interviews I have had the pleasure of being involved in to date while promoting the 'SWIRL' release. I don`t think there was much that we did not cover. I recall being online and taking over eight hours with the reading, responding, responses leading to other questions and of course the other people online that participated in the interview with their questions and comments. I was told that the interview was going to be broken up into three parts and released in three separate issues.


Me and Kat contributed to that interview asking you questions; do you remember the others involved that night? Do you think a live interview such as that is a good idea and would you want to see more of them conducted on the internet?
Duane T. Jones:
I remember someone with the name Reggae asking a few questions and I believe there was one other person that appeared in the comments. I had no problem with the format of the interview and it was a unique way to conduct it. I think that format can work provided the subject has the time to devote to the process. At first I was a little concerned that my answers were too involved, but Kat assured me that this was not going to be a "less is more" type of interview and she was pleased with the depth of my responses.


Were you acquainted with the staff of Obscure Chaos before conducting the interview? How was the interview arranged and scheduled? Kat works hard to support underground music so did you have an idea the interview would be thorough?
Duane T. Jones:
I was vaguely familiar through Facebook with Obscure Chaos. I have always been impressed with the amount of time and effort Obscure Chaos puts into the promotion of bands with very few restrictions on rock/metal subgenres. It is a wonderful thing for all the bands who are trying to get themselves out there and be noticed by a new audience. To this day I participate in as many of the Obscure Chaos posts that are relevant to Swirl. For example, they do a "post your band’s website and another band you want us to promote" subject that I try to utilize for Swirl and various bands I discover online and on stages. I have seen them promote other "zines" and internet radio stations as well. Obscure Chaos does a fantastic job and all they seem to ask is that people contribute to their page and not just take the information they are providing and leave. I have also seen advice (often times given in a frustrated and sometimes comical tone) to bands on how to create press kits for or contact the sites they promote. I don`t recall the details of how we arranged the interview, but I believe I saw a post stating Obscure Chaos had slots available for interviews so naturally I reached out to set one up. I am always on the lookout for ways to promote Swirl. In this day of the Independent Artist you gotta hustle and do the leg work yourself to find ways to be seen and heard. I did not know the depth of the interview, but I do recall as we got underway being impressed with the fact she had done her homework regarding Swirl.


In addition to the band’s current release, what other subject matter was being covered in the interview? Much ground can be covered in the space of eight hours; how much will people reading it get to know the band?
Duane T. Jones:
A tip of the hat to you both for the questions she was asking specific to Swirl history (people in the industry we had worked with, places in and out of the United States Swirl had toured etc), my thoughts on the current state of the music business as well as some gear tech questions. People will get a great feel for the origin of Swirl and what we have been up to since our inception up to the date of the interview. Of course there have been a few accomplishments for the band since the interview, but it is a great place to start for anyone wanting to learn about Swirl.


Had the band previously done live interviews, or was doing it a new experience? Was it similar to the band as being interviewed on video or for a live cable television program?
Duane T. Jones:
This was definitely a new/different experience as it was me (Duane T. Jones) doing the whole interview and it was quite involved time-wise. Video interviews tend to be much shorter or at the very least the published and edited versions are much shorter. I would gladly do it again. I think the bigger bands can get away with longer interviews, but I am quite sure there is not a format out there for indie bands that is that indepth and time consuming, which is too bad, but also great for Obscure Chaos as they are pioneers in this format.


Would it surprise you to see a greater number of live interviews being conducted in such a way, either on Facebook or other social media networks? Do you think this approach to interviewing would catch on or just be exclusive to independent zines?
Duane T. Jones:
I don`t know that surprise is the right word. I would welcome it for sure. It was a blast to do. I would like to think it would catch on which would put us all on the cusp of a new trend and I like the idea of helping to "pioneer a change".


Does the band prefer being indepth when it comes to interviews, as opposed to the “less is more”/fluff approach to interviewing?
Duane T. Jones:
We appreciate ANYONE wanting to give us their time no matter the length. The reality of things is that there are millions of bands in the world and far too many on the more "unknown to many" side of their careers come across as somewhat entitled. Our attitude has always been that "just because you have a band doesn’t mean anyone has to give a fuck" so be grateful for those that do and work your ass off to grow your following. My preference is to promote Swirl by any means available.


Do you think indepth interviews are preferable because they provide information on a band to the extent that you get to know where they are coming from inside and out?
Duane T. Jones
: I prefer to do them because I want to tell everyone everything about my band as long as they are interested. I think it depends on what information a person wants to know. For some it is information overload, but for a great many others I think it is welcomed.


Can you share some of your thoughts on the music industry as it stands these days, whether it concerns major record companies, independent trading or social networks on the internet?


Duane T. Jones:
I recently read where Gene Simmons of KISS proclaimed "Rock is dead," and I have since seen several artists at different "successful" levels of their careers respond to his comment. I think that the business model in place when KISS was starting out is definitely no longer available to many rock artists. There is no more nurturing of bands by labels. I don’t see that as a bad thing when it is far too easy for any artist to get their music straight out to the people through the internet. I think the onus falls on the artists to create something of real value and I think that is great because now more than ever THE PEOPLE DECIDE. If someone is creating something worthy of attention and is also willing to put the time and effort into the business side of the MUSIC BUSINESS then they certainly are at an advantage. You used to read all the time about bands that were busy getting ripped off by those around them they trusted with their careers while they were just busy "playing rock star"... those stories are less and less because the artists are more in control of their careers. As an example Swirl has been able to get three songs placed in the movie 'Ditch Day Massacre' and this was a deal struck directly between the band and the producer of the film (Water Tree Media). No manager or label involved in the process making sure they "get their cut". I don’t think that this is the kind of deal that the KISS’s of the world could have ever done when starting out. Now I am not saying that this movie will yield financial success that will catapult Swirl into that tax bracket, but I am saying we will have a much better idea of where every penny is coming and going. It is a more time consuming process to write, record, market and administrate your own work, but it is also very rewarding.  As our careers grow and we have more opportunities to get the attention of big time management companies we will be able to sit down with them with the understanding of much of what their job entails. I don’t see how that can be a bad thing for the artist. In fact, we have already done this to secure our entertainment attorney (Angela Curtis) who came to us AFTER we had done the 'Ditch Day Massacre' deal. One of the things that attracted her to us was the fact we were accomplishing things without outside interference and established momentum in our careers. Again, I don’t see how that can be a bad thing for the artist.


What are some of the comments Gene Simmons got in response to his “rock is dead” claim? Is rock really dead? In some ways it might be to some since some artists tend to overdo the marketing. I mean, does a band really need to stamp their name on every product they can think of when already making a fortune? Would you consider this exploitation of a band’s fans or no?
Duane T. Jones:
I won`t be going into promoting Gene`s agenda or responses to his comments. It`s out there and easy to find. I will say he has created quite a little dust up with it. Anything that gets people talking is a good thing. I don`t believe rock is dead. I certainly hope not! That would be a horrible thing for us all now wouldn`t it? “Overdo the marketing”? I don`t think it is exploitation of the fans. KISS is a brand. Clearly there are many things a band can learn from the way KISS does their business if they would like to be able to make music for a living. They have earned a devoted following and if their fans want to spend money on "all things KISS" that is up to them. They can always simply not purchase something being marketed to them.


I understand the business aspects of the industry, and understand a devoted fan’s dedication, but in many cases marketing can overshadow the actual product and fans should decide for themselves. Many bands made it without all that excess because their music struck a chord or was strong enough to speak for itself. At the end of the day, is the music as important?
Duane T. Jones:
I can only speak from personal experience on this subject, but it has been proven to me emphatically since the release of the 'SWIRL' EP that the MUSIC matters in the MUSIC BUSINESS. It`s not like we as a band have not tried to reach our goals prior to now. We even had people come across out path with incredible business acumen, but we didn`t have the songs to push through. That appears to not be the case this time. At the end of the day there comes a moment when all the image, pomp and circumstance goes on the back burner and the listener is left to just take in the song. If it isn`t there then people are quick to move on because there is so much music accessible to everyone. Smoke and mirrors can only get you by for so long. There has got to be a song in there people can get attached to or you are going nowhere. We have been close before. We are closer now and it`s looking good for Swirl.


Recount the history of Swirl from the beginning. Who first thought of starting the band, what the band intended to achieve musically, how you found like-minded musicians to complete the lineup, et cetera.
Duane T. Jones:
The band was started by myself and my brother Brian was recruited to play drums. We did a CD release titled 'Out Of Nowhere' that was produced by Carlos Cavazo (Quiet Riot/Ratt) and Grammy nominated engineer Matt Thorr (Rough Cut). We toured the US and Japan on that release. While putting together the material for the follow up our father (Brian and I) was diagnosed with, then passed away from Diabetes and Pancreatic Cancer which shut me down emotionally for a while. At the urging of Claude Schnell (Dio) and help of Fred Coury (Cinderella) along with the aforementioned Cavazo/Thorr team I got back to making music. Claude Schnell was working with a band in LA that had recently parted ways with their guitarist and asked me to write/ record with them on a project he would produce so I went down and met both Alfred and Shane. I started working with them and realized it didn’t have the energy behind it that I felt with Swirl. I co-wrote two songs with Alfred and then went into the studio with Fred Coury to record "Time To Fly (Adrenaline)" and "Mad Disease (Sleepwalker)". The reaction we got online and within my circle of musician friends was very strong, thus Swirl was reborn. We recruited Shane Carlson to play bass and went on the road covering 50,000 miles in the U.S. opening for various artists; Slaughter, LA Guns, Bullet Boys, George Lynch’s Souls Of We, Cinderella, Extreme, Ratt and a few others. I honestly believe that is the best way to become a "band"... get your group together, and take it on the road for an extended period of time. If, when that is over, you can still stand the sight of each other and want to work together then you got a band (laughs). You still have to have the music, obviously, but at the very least you are a band. What do we intend to achieve... "World Domination" (laughs). Really the sky is the limit. We intend to make music together and see how far that takes us. We are very much a band of brothers now with a common goal and the rest is now, because of the internet, UP TO THE PEOPLE. So far so good.


How does the band differ musically and attitude-wise from all others in your field?
Duane T. Jones:
We don`t get into comparisons with other bands. It’s art so it is subjective anyway. What we do bring to the "field" is our brand of high energy, passionate performance backed with well-crafted songs. Our attitude as a band is workman like in that we believe we are the lucky ones when you as a fan/friend come to see our show so we believe in doing whatever it takes to make you feel like coming to see or choosing to listen to Swirl was the right choice.


What were your experiences touring the States and Japan like? You got to tour another country fairly early in your career; how did this make the band feel about the opportunity? What are Japanese fans like these days?
Duane T. Jones:
Touring is the very reason you do rock n roll in the first place as far as I am concerned! We all love it. Meeting people, seeing different places, the interaction that comes with all of it. Clearly, we have not done enough of it to be jaded by the monotony yet. (laughs) Let`s hope we can be a touring band that long. We relished that opportunity. We not only got to go over to Japan, but we headlined a three day traveling festival and made the front page of the newspaper there. I still have it. I have no idea what it says, but I have it and our photo is included with that article. I think the Japanese fans are great. We had such a welcome response on stage and off. It was a tremendous experience that I hope we are able to do again with the release of the ‘SWIRL’ EP as our music finds more and more outlets.


Indicate the title of the band’s current full length and the tracks included on it. Were the songs featured on the album chosen because they were personal or otherwise meaningful to the band?
Duane T. Jones:
We are currently promoting our self-titled EP ‘SWIRL’. The 7 song release features three tracks that are included on the soundtrack to the Watertree Media horror film 'Ditch Day Massacre', as well as two tracks that were co-written, recorded and produced by Cinderella drummer Fred Coury. All the songs were meaningful to the band in some form or another. Mainly we believed these songs together made a great statement about Swirl today with regard to our growth as songwriters, lessons learned from working in previous studio situations with successful industry people and our current musical direction. More great things are happening daily it seems for Swirl as a result of this release. Check it out the music player on the homepage of our website at www.swirltheband.com. Tracks are: "Fourth Of July," "Spell"; featured in the film Ditch Day Massacre, "Rise Up"; featured in the film Ditch Day Massacre, "We Are Alive": featured in the film Ditch Day Massacre, "Message"; "Time To Fly (Adrenaline)"; co-written, mixed and produced by Fred Coury, "Mad Disease (Sleepwalker)"; Co-written, mixed and produced by Fred Coury.


How did Swirl manage to have their songs included in the soundtrack of Ditch Day Massacre? Describe what this movie is about and indicate if it is worth seeing?
Duane T. Jones:
'Ditch Day Massacre' is a horror film produced by Water Tree Media (Megan Waters). This film keeps getting great reviews with scores in the "7/10", "3.5/5", "4/4", "4/5" range and just won the "Best Feature Film" award at the Burbank International Film Festival on September 7, 2014. The cast is excellent and stars Emmy Award Winning actor Bill Oberst Jr. It’s about a handful of high school age kids who decide to 'ditch' school one day not realizing that the female lead (Katy Foley) is hiding a dark secret from her past that comes calling on this ill-fated day. It`s a fast paced ride with unexpected twists as the story unfolds. There is even an appearance by Lynn Lowry in the film and it just so happens one of the Swirl songs was used to set up her scene. I would definitely say it is worth seeing. You can check out many of the reviews for 'Ditch Day Massacre' at the official Swirl website at swirltheband.com (just click on the "Press" button). The trailer for and any other info about the film can be found at ditchdaymassacre.com. Brian was playing with another project whose lead singer is married to the writer of this film. When we finished the recording sessions for what would eventually become the 'SWIRL' EP Brian took it to the writer (Daniel P. Coughlin), who liked it so much he took it to the producer (Megan Waters), who liked it so much that Swirl became the featured artist for the film. This is an example of the band doing the leg work after writing and recording to market the music rather than have an outside person (manager, label, attorney etc) do it for them. In this case Swirl’s involvement in 'Ditch Day Massacre' is directly attributed to Brian Jones. BREAKING NEWS: Fresh off winning "Best Feature Film" at the 2014 Burbank International Film Festival on September 7 'Ditch Day Massacre' has been released to the public through the ditchdaymassacre.com website and Vimeo for $4.99.


What movies had Megan Waters produced previously to Ditch Day Massacre? Are the band fans of horror movies? If so, which of them do you most often watch?
Duane T. Jones:
This was the first film for Megan Waters and Watertree Media. To be honest I am the only member of Swirl that does not routinely watch horror films. Of course I have seen this one and have since immersed myself in the genre by joining several of the Horror Genre related groups on Facebook so I am catching up slowly (laughs). Bassist Shane Carlson does a horror genre podcast with a friend. I deferred to him, Alfred and Brian for their rating of the film compared to other works in the horror genre after we did the private screening. While trying to be unbiased here I will say that the film has rated very well. We are all extremely excited, proud and happy for Megan, Dan and the entire 'Ditch Day Massacre' team.


What horror movies have you been introduced to since you began catching up?
Duane T. Jones:
For me it is not so much any specific movies I can just rattle off. It`s more the genre as a whole and it is especially interesting to me (a "newbie") now that we have entered the Halloween month of October! The images from various movies and books are actually quite beautiful in their own chaotic way.


Tell the readers about the podcast Shane Carlson hosts? How regularly does this podcast air (weekly, monthly) and how many different movies are discussed on the show? Is there a web address where horror fans can stream the podcast?
Shane Carlson:
The podcast is called The Kreep Show. It's hosted by Shane, stand-up comedian Mat Biller and indie director/writer Spencer Gray. They discuss horror flicks, interview various guests within the horror genre of movies, art and music and generally spend a good amount of time debating who the bigger horror icon is: Jason, Freddy, or Mike Myers. It's a weekly show that's live on Wednesday's at 10pm on blogtalkradio.com/thekreepshow. Recently the podcast is on hiatus while Spencer is off directing a new flick but past how's are archived.


Between Jason, Freddy and Mike Myers, how often has it been debated which of these characters should be considered the ultimate horror icon? Are others such as Leatherface and Pinhead discussed on your podcast? Are mainstream horror movies mostly covered on this podcast or are there some underground/independent movies also covered?
Shane Carlson:
Freddy, Mike and Jason were bantered about on a fairly routine basis. We started a bit every week where would pit a horror icon against a comic/sci-fi icon; Darth Vader vs Freddy, Jason vs. Wolverine, etc. Pinhead and Leatherface were referenced but since they’re not our faves, they weren't a regular part of the show. We had guests from I Spit On Your Grave and Sleepaway Camp which were pretty big flicks and also a lot of indie directors from Sledge And The Orphan Killer.


Who has guested on The Kreep Show and how detailed were the interviews when it came to their careers?
Shane Carlson:
Kreep Show guest credits: Cleve Hall: special effects artist and host of Syfy's "Monster Man," Diane Foster: actress and Matt Farnsworth: director of "The Orphan Killer," Kristian Hanson: director of "Sledge," Felissa Rose: star of "Sleepaway Camp," James Balsamo: director of "Cool As Hell," Street Artist Banksy Alexis Iacono: star of "The Black Dahlia Haunting," Camille Keaton: star of the original "I Spit On Your Grave."


How did the band meet Fred Coury and how did it come to pass that he produced your material?
Duane T. Jones:
Every year we attend NAMM and are able to meet/network with various names in the music business. On one occasion I met Fred who runs his own recording studio while not fulfilling his Cinderella requirements. I wanted a re-mix done of some of the songs from the 'Out Of Nowhere' CD so our relationship started from there. When I was ready to go into the studio with Alfred I asked if he was available and after hearing what we were working on Fred decided to produce the two tracks "Time To Fly (Adrenaline)" and "Mad Disease (Sleepwalker)". We took the experiences and lessons learned from sessions with Carlos, Matt and Fred into two studios in Lake Elsinore, CA to record the Swirl sessions. We produced ourselves with James Rieger engineering the final mixes. He and his wife Carol became an invaluable part of the team that produced the bulk of the music on the Swirl EP and we were all very proud to learn that all three of the songs chosen for 'Ditch Day Massacre' came from the songs we worked on together.


How long has the band attended the NAMM conventions, and who else have you made contact with there? Where does NAMM traditionally take place?
Duane T. Jones:
NAMM is an amazing experience. We have met way more people in various aspects of the music industry that I could ever list here and to try, but leaving somebody off the list would be a major disservice as everyone plays a role in the machine that is the music business. Whether it be artists and various levels of their careers, managers, booking agents, the makers of the equipment that make it possible for us all to do what we do. The current lineup of Swirl made our NAMM debut in 2009. NAMM is held in the city of Anaheim, CA at the Anaheim Convention Center.


Of the songs included on your EP, who penned them and what were they written about. In any of their cases were there specific incidents that inspired the lyrics?
Duane T. Jones:
As for lyrical inspiration I will forward this one to Alfred as he wrote all the lyrics with very little input from the rest of us so he will be better suited to answer. "In answer to your question, my lyrics are inspired by my life experiences and the world we live in. These songs all deal with universal themes. What I feel is most important is not such my specific experiences but the experiences of the listener. I want the listener to find their own story within my lyrics and the music. In turn I hope the music of Swirl captivates you, elevates you and most importantly inspires you." -Alfred Ramirez. All of the songs started off basically with me on guitar having some kind of a basic structure after creating a riff and building on it from there. For all the songs except "Time To Fly (Adrenaline)" and "Mad Disease (Sleepwalker)” the next step was for me to get together with Brian who helped to create the arrangements that we took to the Shane and Alfred. Shane was instrumental in coming up with parts and ideas for the songs not limited to bass guitar. As an example the rhythmic instrumental section that happens before the bridge and at the end of "We Are Alive" is a Shane creation. He was always coming up with killer parts like that, melodic bass lines (chorus of "Rise Up") or suggestions to make the songs better (muted rhythm guitar part in “Fourth Of July.” With "Time To Fly (Adrenaline)" and "Mad Disease (Sleepwalker)” though they started in the same way as the others in that I created a version of the song in full on guitar after that I gave it to Alfred who wrote lyrics. Then we went into the studio with Fred Coury who helped to arrange, create and co-write the versions you hear on the ‘SWIRL’ EP.


Quote some of the lyrics to the songs you mentioned, and indicate if any of those songs were mentioned in reviews of your EP? In what ways do you think your fans will relate to the lyrics?
Duane T. Jones:
Well as it is a seven song EP all the songs are referenced in nearly all the reviews. I don`t want to give it away for the listener, so by all means check out the songs. Alfred wrote some very inspirational lyrics that work in a universal manner for all. In one review the writer stated that he actually felt "better" after hearing our release. It`s very much a compliment to learn when something you created by putting so much of yourself into taps into the emotions of another human being.


We have yet to touch upon the bands that have been influential or inspirational to the members of Swirl at some point. How does the band collectively work to fuse these influences together?
Duane T. Jones:
Everyone brings their respective influences to our music. However we do it in a way where we are not trying to mimic anyone. It`s not like you could point to a moment in a song and think Rush (Brian), Metallica (Shane), David Bowie (Alfred) or Ratt (DT). As far as bands that  have inspired us? We are students of the business and look to the bands that are where we want to be regardless of their musical genre if that makes sense. Would you believe a successful band like Genesis carries just as much respect as Aerosmith with us? It`s about the story of each band and we are working hard to make sure we are writing on hell of a story for Swirl.


Are elements of all the bands cited as influences by the members of Swirl brought into the band’s formula? How do you go about composing your material?
Duane T. Jones:
I would think they have to be. I know there are times when I am creating a lead part where think "this sounds like something Jake E Lee or Warren D would do on a bad day" (laughs). I would not be surprised to hear that any of us have moments when we think something we are playing/ singing reminds us of an influence, but we by no means set out to create something that is a direct descendent of an influence. For this release most of the ideas started out as guitar parts I created. The next step was getting into a room with Brian and working on the arrangements because we have all come to realize Brian`s ears are invaluable to the process when it comes to connecting the dots to make a song. Then we presented it to Shane and Alfred who added their influences to the music and lyrics respectively. Shane brought so much to each of the songs musically with suggestions or the creation or parts. As I touched on earlier Alfred just has a real gift for creating lyrics that touch a person on an emotional level. The whole thing just works.


The band was recently involved in a voting competition to appear on MX Rock Fest. Explain this contest and how many votes were received by the band by the time it closed?
Duane T. Jones:
I was contacted by the owners of Rock N Roll Industries Magazine (which published a review of the 'Swirl' EP on November 2013 giving is at 8/10 score; Megadeth graces the cover) about a Battle Of The Bands opportunity where the winning band plays their first annual MX Rock Festival which was headlined by Buckcherry on November 1 in Adelanto, CA. Naturally we jumped at the chance to gain more exposure and put the Swirl Society to work securing "Likes" (which were counted as votes) of the Swirl band photo and the MX Rock Festival page on Facebook. Swirl started out strong, but ultimately was beaten out for this opportunity. We finished second in the contest having received over 400 votes. I attended the MX Rock Festival just yesterday. It was a cool event and Swirl was still able to have a presence there via a live radio interview I was able to do with "Dirty D" at "Radio Memphis Around The World" and networking with some of the other bands on the bill. Additionally, the interview I did as a follow up to the Swirl photo shoot with the magazine`s contributing columnist Neil Zlozower will run in the next issue of Rock N Roll Industries Magazine. So though we may not have won the contest we still made the most of it. Getting the most out of every opportunity is the way Swirl operates.


Swirl has been getting airplay and interview time on some radio programs, as you announced on your Facebook profile. Name some of the radio stations that have interviewed you and featured your songs?
Duane T. Jones:
We have been fortunate enough to get radio exposure from both FM and internet radio. I will name just a few, but certainly do not mean to minimize the exposure we have received from any stations. Locally we have been pushed by Q103.3 FM, Lance Hall with the Silk & Steel Power Hour X3 in Vermont, Rocker`s Dive Radio online and of course Radio Memphis are just a few examples of the MANY stations that have started airing "Rise Up", "Time To Fly (Adrenaline)", "Spell" and "Mad Disease". I just received word from Daniel J who owns the Soupy Gato Radio Show out of the Netherlands that he has started airing "We Are Alive" last week.


Is the band writing new material and planning to appear on additional movie soundtracks? What can we expect from Swirl in the near future?
Duane T. Jones:
We are currently focused on getting songs from the 'SWIRL' EP licensed. We have a goal in mind for the marketing of this release. We are in talks with two movies and one TV show. Hopefully we can wrap that up by the end of 2014 so we can tour extensively throughout 2015. Though we are not in "writing mode" with the next release in mind, we are working on new song ideas all the time.


Swirl

-Dave Wolff